Code, secrecy, etc. Please reply.

[Anonymous]

First of all, I'm sorry I suggested the code in the fashion I did, rather than raise it as a public concern.

People are using it a lot, which isn't what I intended.  I thought it'd only be used on rare occasions.

My reasoning went as follows:

1. It's a breakable code.  If you don't send the key via PM (which in retrospect was a bad idea that probably I shouldn't have suggested), anyone can read it if they just google 'online encoder.'  If you guys think it's best, I can even just share the site.  It doesn't require any kind of specialized knowledge.  I thought we might have some fun with a bit of mystery.

2.  The Gospels were online a lot PMing each other.  Then, when Marshal lost his inside guy, the Seekers had no way of accessing that stuff or even knowing when the Gospels were sending PMs.  I thought code might be a good way to at least tell when they were planning things.  

I'm hearing people are upset by this, and I'm really sorry!  I didn't intend for it to exclude anyone.  Clearly I didn't think it through well enough.

Here's the problem: it's possible now that the Gospels have posted some things they don't want people to read (and sent the key via PM).  

1.  Is it okay if we let people know how to read the code?  Code with the key sent via PM would still be unreadable unless those Gospels decide to share it, but those with the key posted publicly would be totally readable.

2.  Do people want to read the code?  

I guess, um, yeah, I'm really sorry if I caused trouble around here, it wasn't my intention in the least.  I just wanted to have a bit of fun, and I ran it past Rhi before I suggested it (as far as I can recall).  Let me know what you guys think so we can sort this out.

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm going to go with saying that in my opinion, okay, yeah. Maybe the Gospels got carried away with the code and it should be saved for maybe important things. It wasn't supposed to make anyone feel excluded.

But, also, I'm going to point out that the Seekers aren't letting anyone see what they are planning OOC. Which, if the Gospels don't get to keep secrets OOC, then neither should the Seekers. We should decide now if we are going to share everything or not.

The Gospels are supposed to be a secret, OOC and IC. It's just supposed to be fun. And, well, I am starting to feel like the shit is getting taken way to seriously. And people need to just take a deep breath and remember that this is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. And if not knowing what is going on isn't fun, then we can calmly and rationally discuss this like the adults we claim to be. And come to a conclusion that makes everyone happy.

Personally, yeah. I feel a little cut out from the Seeker stuff. I don't get to see what they are planning and that's kinnda lame. But, at the same time, it adds a bit of spice to the game, that I don't even know what is going on. And it helps keep me from using OOC knowledge IC. Which I like to think I am pretty good about, but I know I start second guessing if my character should be able to make that leap of logic or not.

[Rhi-Rhi]

The Gospels are supposed to be a secret, OOC and IC. It's just supposed to be fun. And, well, I am starting to feel like the shit is getting taken way to seriously. And people need to just take a deep breath and remember that this is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. And if not knowing what is going on isn't fun, then we can calmly and rationally discuss this like the adults we claim to be. And come to a conclusion that makes everyone happy.

QFT. <3

Personally, I don't mind either way. xD I don't mind the secrecy at all on either end--I find it fun, I like surprises, and all I ask is that I be contacted about any plans that directly affect my character. Aside from that, have secrets galore! I like the suspense and anticipation, and while I also have no issues with the OOC/IC knowledge divide, it just adds a whole new dimension.

HOWEVER!

If other people don't find it fun, we can work out something that is and hopefully find a happy medium--both sides just need to give their input, is all. Either way, everyone needs to just calm down and chillax, because this is a game and it is nothing worth bad feelings, taking things personally, and raised blood pressures. '_' Let's not argue over pretend people in pretend worlds, now, 'kay guys? :heart:

So yeah. I'm personally fine with whatever decision we all come to, because I'm not bothered either way and will have fun with it no matter what is decided. xD

[Anonymous]

When I was talking to Choco I thought he made a valid point about the code which was that really the Seekers or at least him would have the ability to break it. OOC I couldn't find the right thing even after I was given the hint from Sam. So maybe I'm really unintelligent perhaps but it made sense to me.

The Gospels can also use PMS privately which is what they've been doing since the beginning, plus they could always use an ethernet thing like the seekers are doing, it's a really handy tool Sam found. I was just getting really frustrated with the whole thing because there was mention of one of my characters unencrypted and I had yet to hear anything from a Gospel about whatever, I wanted to find out what it said obviously, and I had a hint and still couldn't find whatever thing it was Sam was talking about. IC unless Danica could see it I wouldn't use the information, OOC I felt cut out and disrespected in a way. Especially the way it was handled.

I don't know really, but for the sake of the game I don't want people bickering at each other over things like this. And game wise it makes sense that the seekers would be able to figure out how to break it. That's part of their job. Just like if a Gospel could figure out hot to hack into something the seekers have that would be feasible.

I'm ranting. <3 you guys

EDIT: Alrighty I feel a lot better about everything now having talked to Sam and Choco and figuring things out. So I'm not nearly as grumpy and confused about it. Sorry for the rant above. ^ A lot of it still holds true. But I feel much better about it. I know we'll figure this out.

[Anonymous]

I was just getting really frustrated with the whole thing because there was mention of one of my characters unencrypted and I had yet to hear anything from a Gospel about whatever, I wanted to find out what it said obviously, and I had a hint and still couldn't find whatever thing it was Sam was talking about. IC unless Danica could see it I wouldn't use the information, OOC I felt cut out and disrespected in a way. Especially the way it was handled.

I think that if anything was going to involve your character, the player would have contacted you. The Gospels can and have mentioned Pilots by name before. All the player limit rules still apply, regardless of if they are a Gospel or not.

[Anonymous]

Hardly Rina. The gospels don't tell us anything. I had to berate Sylph into telling me anything about the whole gospel attack, so I could have marshal actually /do/ anything.

I'm going to make a proposition to Rhi. If she accepts, there will be changes, for the better of both parties and the game as a whole. Fear not mortals, thine choco is here.

[Anonymous]

Well, sense that thing with Sylph we have had several discussions about making sure to not godmode people. And I am pretty sure that people are going to stick to those rules.

And there is nothing to stop Kitsy from PMing the Gospel's account and asking them what is going on and if it is going to involve her character. The Gospels are allowed to reference Pilots all they want. It's then up to the Seekers and that player how they handle it.

If the Gospels are going to be effecting the Pilots, then yes, something should be talked about between the players.

[Anonymous]

Hardly Rina. The gospels don't tell us anything. I had to berate Sylph into telling me anything about the whole gospel attack, so I could have marshal actually /do/ anything.

I'm going to make a proposition to Rhi. If she accepts, there will be changes, for the better of both parties and the game as a whole. Fear not mortals, thine choco is here.

This isn't heroism, and a lot of it isn't even true.

Choco never had to berate me - we asked each other nicely for information during the first attack, and the second one was pretty obvious. I responded to his request for a context change, and I have been nothing if not helpful to the Seekers with the recent encryption scheme, as Slider will attest. I'm actually a little surprised and offended to be cast as the (meta) villain here.

Whatever. I really hope Rhi handles this right.

[Rhi-Rhi]

...I really highly doubt that Choco. xP Berate? Not too long ago you were saying Sylph helped and was very cooperative, and a hiiiiiighly doubt there was any berating involved.

Alright. Lemme lay it out like this:

• The Gospels are allowed to mention Pilot names. They've mentioned many people there, including Roman. xP If something is going to actually affect a character, the player of that character will be told, so that stuff can be discussed and if the player doesn't like it, then hey, they don't have to do it. Communication and all that. :3
• The Seekers can't read the Gospel Subnet to begin with unless they have a mole there. xP So unless one of those Gospels is a Seeker mole, they wouldn't even know the Gospels were posting in code to begin with. xD
• There are still PMs. Anyone else is allowed to plot via private means, so I don't see any reason why Seekers and Gospels alike should be prevented from doing so.
• This isn't about winning or losing. I thiiiink the whole point of the code and secrecy was not to slight people, but for some mystery and suspense. xP
• This isn't supposed to be a slight against any players. O_o It's just pretendy fun time games. I encourage dialogue between both Seekers and Gospels for plotty stuff, because hey, if everyone plots together, fun things happen! But will it be fun to have absolutely no secrets, on either side?

NOW! With that said...

Choco, why don't you propose your idea here, not just to me, because I am not going to be the one making the decision here. We are all going to work this out and decide what we want to do and how we want to go about this. Some of you have brought up reasons why you don't like it and how it made you feel and whatnot, but I saw no suggestions for how to make this better for everyone involved. I'm basically just a mediator here, because honestly, like I said, I don't care what is decided--I'll have fun with it either way. It should be fun for everyone involved.

Sooo, suggestions guys?

And remember: it's not about winning or losing. It's about fun stories. xP Neither side, OOCly, should be trying to pwn the other.

[Anonymous]

I'm just confused as to why it suddenly became not fun and a slight to other players to have Gospels be, well, secret. They have been secret for a whole now and it hasn't seemed to have been a problem before.

And, well, I just...don't get the problem. I have no idea what the Seekers are talking about. I know from talking to a few of the Seeker players that they are working to figure out IC and OOC who is which Gospel. But, I don't get to see that stuff. And sure, I would love to get to see it. That would be cool. But, at the same time, the not knowing can add a spice. Are they getting close? Is someone getting caught? Oh noes!

I just, really don't understand what the problem is. And I think that is the big stumbling block. I don't fully get the problem people have with the Gospels being able to plan their stuff in secret. When something is actually going to /happen/ instead of just being talked about, then that will be discussed through the proper channels.

And thank you Rhi. I am glad you are letting everyone have a say in something that effects everyone. It effects me and my characters and I would like to be a part of planning what is going to be happening. Cooperative building is kind of what this site is about.

[Anonymous]

You know what I think the problem is? I think the problem is the gospels started talkin in code, forcing us to either not be a part of their private game or waste time decoding. I'm here to write, not to break codes, however easy they're supposed to be.

I think the Seekers started using an etherpad instead of the forums where everyone can read and enjoy.

I think that a horrendous abuse of OOC knowledge occured when sylph 'caught' keeper. Yes, I'm sure a lot of you knew it was Marshal. I didn't hide my writing style. But IC? There was no more reason to suspect Keeper than any of the other gospels pretending to be idiots, or those suggesting dumb or plain suicidal missions.

So, these we need to solve. I suggest the Seekers discussions are moved here, the code idea is removed, and we endevour to ensure we don't use OOC information anymore.

[Anonymous]

In your ideal world, what is it that you want? Because that might help. What is it that think should be happening with the Seekers and the Gospels. So we can come to an acceptable compromise so that everyone can have fun. Because the goal is that everyone has fun. Not just a few people.

[Anonymous]

I repeat, for Rina:

So, these we need to solve. I suggest the Seekers discussions are moved here, the code idea is removed, and we endevour to ensure we don't use OOC information anymore.

EDIT: To add. For you Gospels. I know you're probably excited with your big plots but please, slow down a little. I promise to post soon in the Treason thread and I know i've been holding you up, but work has been hectic and hit me pretty hard. I just can't keep up. It's good having other Seeker players, but you have to /know/ Marshal is practicaly forced to be involved as soon as you involve Fala. So just hold up for a bit please. I appreciate your patience.

[Anonymous]

So that is it? Once those things happen, you will be happy?

[Anonymous]

I'm just trying to make it fun for everyone Rina. These concerns aren't mine alone. Calm down. We're all just talkng ok?

Yes, that is what I would like to see done. Perhaps in the future I will suggest other changes, but for now I think those things would reduce tensions and let us all get back to happy fun times.

[Anonymous]

What? How am I not calm? I just want to make sure we are on the same page. I want to know what it is that you want, so that we can find a nice middle ground. When have I been angry?


Personally, I don't give a flying rat fuck about the code. It was just a fun addition. No one I know of is all that invested in it. So, personally, fine. Whatever. If that gets people back to their happy place, no more code. Gospels can just do things via PMs when they are supposed to be secret.

Seekers posting their stuff on the site is a good idea if we want everyone sharing stuff. Cool with me.

Not using OOC knowledge IC is....always supposed to be in effect. If you are upset with what Sylph did, talk to them /personally./ One Gospel =/= all of them.

EDIT: To add. For you Gospels. I know you're probably excited with your big plots but please, slow down a little. I promise to post soon in the Treason thread and I know i've been holding you up, but work has been hectic and hit me pretty hard. I just can't keep up. It's good having other Seeker players, but you have to /know/ Marshal is practicaly forced to be involved as soon as you involve Fala. So just hold up for a bit please. I appreciate your patience.

What the fuck are you going on about? I don't think the Gospels have any big plots. On the blog, they have just mentioned a few things. And there was a minor hacking that as far as I am aware was discussed with the players involved.

[Rhi-Rhi]

Yeah, because honestly, I don't think most people actually care about the code and stuff...we all just thought it would be a fun thing to do. But it's not serious business and it can be dropped, or at least the decoding stuff can be posted so people can figure it out.

Like I said, definitely open to suggestions. :3 And now that that suggestion (Choco's suggestion) was made, I'd like to see what people think about it.

Again, just striving for a happy medium here.

Edit: Yep, I was contacted by the Gospels regarding Shiloh's participation in the hacking. ^_^

[Anonymous]

Can I also just ask, of everyone, including myself:

Guys, if you're going to do something major involving someone elses character (Discovering Marshal as Keeper, kicking Cory out of IF, killing Alaina when Gabriel was standing /right there/ and really would have done something) think about it first and talk to the player privately. I personally would have had no issues with any of those things, had I been approached. Hell, I would have had Cory just leave. But coming at someone publicly is in poor taste, so please, just talk to people. Talk to the Gospels, talk to the players, just /talk/ before you post something like that rather than blindside us.

That really is the core of most of my (many, hehe xD; regular gripes.

[Anonymous]

See the regular use of 'fuck'? That indicates anger xD;;

It's oooook rina. Caaaalm. Happy times ^__^;; *edges away*

[Anonymous]

Guys, if you're going to do something major involving someone elses character (Discovering Marshal as Keeper, kicking Cory out of IF, killing Alaina when Gabriel was standing /right there/ and really would have done something) think about it first and talk to the player privately. I personally would have had no issues with any of those things, had I been approached. Hell, I would have had Cory just leave. But coming at someone publicly is in poor taste, so please, just talk to people. Talk to the Gospels, talk to the players, just /talk/ before you post something like that rather than blindside us.

I can't speak for the IF event, but Alaina was consulted by PM and wrote her own final scene. In any case, this is stupid, stupid hypocrisy.

Choco seems to think the Seekers are a crack team of omniscient, godmoded knights. The mole alone was a showstopper -- it allowed him to read our supposedly private communications, meaning that he singlehandedly ruined the subnetwork for everyone for several months. Now he's saying that Keeper should have stayed? His expulsion followed an in-character investigation, but if that were impossible I would have brought it to Rhi eventually.

Look at Sam - she's proof that the Seekers can be done right. The interrogations added a lot of tension and generated excellent RP without pushing anyone's limits. And as much as Sylph him/herself is irked, I am really excited OOC about The Citizen.

Not using OOC knowledge IC is....always supposed to be in effect. If you are upset with what Sylph did, talk to them /personally./ One Gospel =/= all of them.

I am inclined to write Choco's accusation off as straw man, and it frustrates me in general to see him casting me in a bad light OOC. I thought the two of us were on decent terms, but if he has any significant issues with me personally he should PM.

At first, the Seekers were a one-man concept, an addendum to the RotE canon. Today, they crack any code, read Sylph's subnetwork mail, and arrest the Pilot Imperial. Gospels don't have the luxury of a limits page, and we aren't a vocal bunch OOC, but nobody wants to be powerplayed. The subnet should have some expectation of IC privacy. That's what it was there for, after all, and nobody wants a forum like that to go empty because the Seekers are reading it.

So that's what I ask; no more moles, Gospels only in the subnet. If you want to shut down the etherpad and ask Rhi politely for a Seeker conference room, you can. Personally, I think it sucks for the same reason as the code and the mole. I'll give you the tool which handles our encryption on faith (type the key with the message directly after, hit decode)... it's up to you if you want us to stop using it. While it's a nice touch in terms of flavor, I can understand any sentiment against it.