Code, secrecy, etc. Please reply.

[Anonymous]

I can't speak for the IF event, but Alaina was consulted by PM and wrote her own final scene. In any case, this is stupid, stupid hypocrisy.

Rhi was not consulted. Her pilot was standing right there and assumed to be an impotent boob incapable of defending his own candidate.

Choco seems to think the Seekers are a crack team of omniscient, godmoded knights. The mole alone was a showstopper -- it allowed him to read our supposedly private communications, meaning that he singlehandedly ruined the subnetwork for everyone for several months. Now he's saying that Keeper should have stayed? His expulsion followed an in-character investigation, but if that were impossible I would have brought it to Rhi eventually.

No one has /ever/ expressed any hint of a problem with the mole concept before. If the gospels cannot be infiltrared, then they are all powerful and pointless. I am NOT thank you very much, saying that Keeper should have stayed. He got caught. Huzzah, fun times. If only you had have done it /right/ dear Sylph. Isn't it odd that two days after I let Draco know that Keeper is Marshal that suddenly, for what can only be described as pathetic reasons, he's discovered? What about the Gospels suggesting all out war, a concept that sounds so outwardly Seeker motivated it practically screams mole. But no, you choose to test an account that by all means in game you have no reason to suspect. And your proof? He agreed to follow orders. Wow. Because any gospel that follows your orders when they are stupid is obviously a Seeker! But no, you blurr OOC and IC and you powerplay, then have the gall to accuse me of godmodding. Grow up. The Seekers are outnumbered and outgunned. The rules I posted make nothing but sense, if you actually take the time to think about them, and I'm more than happy to discuss them and make revisions, as I have been with Rhi.

Look at Sam - she's proof that the Seekers can be done right. The interrogations added a lot of tension and generated excellent RP without pushing anyone's limits. And as much as Sylph him/herself is irked, I am really excited OOC about The Citizen.

Sam suggested the etherpad. Sam is responsible for the code. Don't you dare tell me Sam is doing my concept right. If not for Sam, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I am inclined to write Choco's accusation off as straw man, and it frustrates me in general to see him casting me in a bad light OOC, as I thought the two of us were on decent terms.

We were on good terms until you used OOC information, and did a major event involving my character without talking to me. In any other context that would be regarded as foul play, yet because we don't know who you are you think you, as the player, are excempt from the rules?

At first, the Seekers were a one-man concept, an addendum to the RotE canon. Today, they crack any code, read Sylph's subnetwork mail, and arrest the Pilot Imperial. Gospels don't have the luxury of a limits page, and we aren't a vocal bunch OOC, but nobody wants to be powerplayed. The subnet should have some expectation of IC privacy. That's what it was there for, after all, and nobody wants a forum like that to go empty because the Seekers are reading it.

They do not crack any code. They /do/ have access to dragons, which I'd imagine are pretty good with numbers. The subnet, as with any terrorist network, is at risk of being infiltrated. Accept it.

You don't want to be powerplayed? Take what you give. I recal having to pull you up on powerplaying the Seekers not too long ago Sylph.

So that's what I ask; no more moles, Gospels only in the subnet.

Why? Why should the Gospels be immune from hunting? Shall we all just roll over and ignore the gospels? Shall i rewrite marshal so he loves puppies and sparkles in the sunlight and is a delicate and pretty little flower while the gospels frolick gayly, immune from any kind of threat because we've managed to create illogical OOC rules stopping anyone from getting information? You want to be in control don't you Sylph? You want to propose every event, spoon feed any little trace of information to the Seekers. Well, sorry sweet cheeks, it doesn't work that way.

This wasn't an argument until now, so your move Sylphy.

[Anonymous]

I was talking to Choco and suggested the idea of having a seeker subnet as well like the Gospel one where we could move our IC things we had on the ethernet board to the forum so everyone could see it. If the Gospels can't talk in code then the Seekers shouldn't have the ether thingy. Plus it would make it much more organized and I think more interesting.

I'm just going to ignore the fighting in between and try and give a suggestion like Rhi asked XD. That was my little idea. =3 I thought it would pan out pretty well, the Seekers could have our files for each gospel and pilot and out interrogation logs things like that. Plus everyone would get the fun of reading our talkings back and forth and get to see Danica and Marshal bitch at each other.

I think once we do that we'll have the trust that we can all distinguish OOC from IC because I've been hearing that tossed around a lot as a problem, and we can all be moe aware of what is going on in our little world. =D Now everyone, Peeeeeeeeeeeace.

[Rhi-Rhi]

Choco: Sylph is not Draco, and I can attest to that. So stop assuming it is--because it's not. So please stop taking things out on Sylph for something s/he couldn't possibly know, and doing the same to Draco for something she didn't even do. They're not the same person.

Also:

[blink:24qpb9z9]FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS UNHOLY WE ARE ARGUING OVER FREAKIN' CODE FOR IMAGINARY CHARACTERS IN A PRETENDY GAME![/blink:24qpb9z9]

Choco, please read you this and when you are done, and only when you are done, are you allowed to post in this subject again. Seriously. It miiiight be a good idea for everyone in this thread to read that in fact because come on, folks. Perspective check. Please. Everyone thought the code was fun. It was not meant to be taken seriously as a slight against anyone.

If anyone had raised concerns with it in a calm, rational matter, that's one thing. This? ^ That freak out? The attacks? Unacceptable. The point of this thread was for calm, rational discussion about how to solve the issues raised to make everyone happy.

Similarly, re: the Seekers, Choco? As I told you in MSN, and as I don't quite think you're understanding now, yes, the Seekers were your idea and you get all the credit for it; it's a great idea, and it has added a lot to the game. :3 But if you want to make them the 'police of the Pilots', if you want them to have power over other characters (quiiite unlike the other member created organizations--this is a job, it affects a large number of characters, you are making it game canon--which is fine!--and it gives them, as I said, a great deal of power over other characters) then you have to accept that you have therefore opened them up to being played by other people. The instant you do that, yes, it's your idea--but you have to stop being possessive over it, and stop getting angry when other players who are playing Seeker characters try to, y'know...make plot and stuff.

The stuff the Seekers do affects a large portion of the Pilot pool. It is your concept, but you can't have it both ways--you can't have it as something you're in complete control of and something you want other people to play in and something that is an integrated part of the Pilots themselves and a powerful position within them.

Anyway, it is as ridiculous as it would be for me to get all upset and possessive because players are taking RotE's setting and actually doing stuff with it and expanding upon it and making it their own, making it even better than it was originally. <--- That is a good thing. RPing is about collaboration, not possession. The instant you open something up for other people to play in it, it's no longer 100% yours. People will put their own spin on it within the guidelines set--and your guidelines for the Seekers are very loose, very open. Which is good! But you can't get ticked when people actually do things with it. Should the Seekers be totally impotent and not do anything without Marshal's say, even though he's not even the leader because they have none (though yes, I understand that he's the closest thing to one)? Even the Gospels still do things on their own in Prophet's absence, and Prophet is their leader, not just a de facto one.

Similarly, Choco, if you didn't like the etherpad, you should have kindly brought it up, not held it all in and then take it out on people. I recall that the Seeker players were quite excited about said etherpad. If the shine has worn off, fine--talk about it. But don't get angry with the person who suggested it because she was trying to be helpful and have fun--if anything, be angry at yourselves for hopping onto the idea and then blaming her for it later.

Also: I have no problem with moles. However, they should be rare, and that's the key word. Cracking into the Subnet should not be, and was not supposed to be, easy in the least. The whole point of the Gospels is to plan some fun events to keep the Pilots on their toes now and then--it's not about Gospels winning or rendering the Seekers impotent. It's about, again, those events to add a little intrigue and antagonism to the setting. This cannot happen if there are constantly moles in the Subnet thwarting every attempt at this and reporting their every plan. :

An occasional mole for spice and paranoia and backfired plans? Sure! That's fun, too! But again, they should be isolated events, and if everyone is joining moles to the Subnet...what's the point? They can no longer plan things, and then it's just no longer even exciting. A rare mole for can add an interesting dimension to the game, but if everyone has a mole, it's boring.

The Gospels post and do things outside the Subnet, too, so it's not like breaking into the Subnet is the only way to trace their activities.

Notice, none of the Gospel players ranted because they didn't know what the Seekers were planning on the etherpad. O_o And frankly, I find this whole drama absolutely 100% ridiculous. Note, I mean the drama part of it, the anger part of it, the part of it where people are getting all ad hominum and super serious about this.

SO TO GET BACK ON TRACK.

Choco already made a suggestion:

So, these we need to solve. I suggest the Seekers discussions are moved here, the code idea is removed, and we endevour to ensure we don't use OOC information anymore.

What I want to know now is if everyone is okay with this? Sound good? Yea, nay? Thoughts? Additions? Complaints?

And, of course, my add-on is I encourage the Seekers and Gospel players to discuss plotty stuff amongst together, too. No one has to know everything--some secrets are fun. But if the two groups can get together now and then, they can also probably work out some plots both can have fun with and maybe come up with ideas the other group wouldn't have even considered. Remember, I know the Seekers are out to get the Gospels and the Gospels are out to rebel, ICly, but OOCly it should not be about winning. Give and take. The Gospels will win some and lose some, the Seekers will win some and lose some, neither group is omnipotent and flawless, and either way the whole point is having fun with the journey, not the outcome.

Lastly, of course, talk to any players whose characters will be involved or affected. So far, the Gospels have been doing a good job with this, but just figured I'd reiterate. ^_^

So, to summarize and because lists make me happy: The Plan of Action

• Seeker discussions happen on the game.
• Gospel code is removed (or at least the decode methods are out in the open? Either way is fine by me, so thoughts?)
• Talk with any players with characters affected by Gospel/Seeker activities.
• Trust that the other players can, and will, keep OOC and IC knowledge separate.
• Encourage dialogue between both groups, trusting the above will be met.
• Chillax, let's all calm down and not act as though our very lives depend on this stuff, 'kay?

Does the above sound right? Does anyone have anything else to add?

ETA:
Kitsy, good idea! And thank you for also being sane. xD

What does everyone think of that? A Seeker channel? :3

[Anonymous]

*points to comment about Seeker subnet*
I think that would be really cool. And I thought I discussed my problem with the code calmly. ^_^ Or tried to at least >.>

But YES, SUBNET for Seekers, I'll even start moving stuff there now I have some time =3

EDIT: Well when you make it, I mean I could move stuff there today. Lawl.

[Rhi-Rhi]

*points to comment about Seeker subnet*
I think that would be really cool. And I thought I discussed my problem with the code calmly. ^_^ Or tried to at least >.>

You were calm. x3 That wasn't really directed at you. xD

But YES, SUBNET for Seekers, I'll even start moving stuff there now I have some time =3

EDIT: Well when you make it, I mean I could move stuff there today. Lawl.

Okay! So we have one vote for a Seeker board, and I can go ahead and make one. I think it wouldn't be a Subnet, though--the Gospels' thingy is called the Subnetwork because they are hidden within the Network. :3 The Seekers would probably have a secure, closed Channel, so it'd probably be a Seeker Channel or some such. xD Minor detail, but yeah!

[Anonymous]

Yeah wasn't sure what to call it! XD
Thanks Rhi =3

EDIT: This post just made my post count 1111...

Creepy.

[Rhi-Rhi]

Dun dun DUUUUUN!!!! =O

And when you post again, it shall be RUINED! D8

Anyway, working on creating it! :3

ETA: Created!

If anyone has any suggestions for a better name, go for it. xD

[Anonymous]

Wow, lots of discussion in my absence.

Sam suggested the etherpad. Sam is responsible for the code. Don't you dare tell me Sam is doing my concept right. If not for Sam, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Choco, I understand your hostility and I would speak to you about it privately, but I don't trust us not to escalate, so here is what I shall say in public.

-I had heard no one complain about the etherpad until now, in light of the whole of the secrecy discussion.  Remember, I brought it up with you (and Rhi) first, and we waited on you before any important decisions were made on that thing, which served mostly as just a list of things we noticed about the Gospels, and Pilots we were keeping an eye on (Choco, you told me not to share this with Draco or, IC, the Imperial--you cannot have this both ways), as well as what was basically IM RP between Seekers.  I understand Sylph's concern about it, too, though I actually hardly thought about privacy when I had the idea, and would have had no problem making it public in any case.  If Choco wants it public, then for sure--I never had any problem with that.  I had only kept it private because that seemed to be an analogue to the Gospel PMs, and because, correct me if I'm wrong, Choco, you didn't want to share what we wrote on it.  Now we're posting it--I still like the etherpad format, and wouldn't have minded just linking to the thing, but hey.

Another reason for my confusion is the legitimate OOC secrecy the Gospels enjoy.  I figured I couldn't see why the Seekers ought to be different.  Again, I don't much care, either way, since I trust all the players to draw the boundaries themselves.  If we have more contact between Seeker and Gospel OOC, we can even leak info when we like.  Accidents do happen.  Heck, maybe we can roll dice.  XD

Anyway, whether the Seeker discussions are public or private, I still think it was a good idea to have them.  I'm not ashamed of organizing them.

-Having a mole in the way that you did (putting in a member of the Gospel subnetwork, reading all the PMs) involves the same breach of OOC information-gathering and IC info-gathering that using a code does.  If you read up, you'll see that the reason I even suggested a code was as a weaker version of the mole thing (and one the Gospels would be okay with): I thought it would allow the Seekers the opportunity to see when the gospels were active, since the PM channel is closed.  At the very least it would allow players to know, OOC, when the Gospels were planning something, that is, if they weren't just PMing.  It would also give us a legit way to figure things out and use it IC if one of you guys broke the code (or so I thought, obviously that's a bit complicated).  As it turns out, I was wrong, because the Seekers apparently can't see the Gospel subnetwork.  I was confused about this because, before I came along, Marshal had indeed been able to see it.   In addition, no one ever told me otherwise when I asked if we could read the subnetwork messages.  Does that make even a little bit of sense?

It is also just a good idea for the Gospels, and I personally have a bit of a geekout over codey things anyway.  But now you have the code site, which Sylph gave you (and everyone), so there it is.  

-I was just trying, in good faith, to sort out the system and the OOC/IC boundaries that I think were blurred before I came along.  

-This conversation is not just about the code--it seems like it is about a lot of things, including your methods and the Gospel methods, that needed to be sorted out.  I'm not going to apologize for starting this conversation, which I think was long overdue.  

-I understand if you have grievances with me for 'doing so much plot,' but other than the etherpad and the code (which are not really pertinent to plot), I:

1.  Had the idea for a couple of interrogations (which I ran past some people first, and it did make sense to have them after the blog hacking).

2.  Tried to figure out a way to make the Seekers into more than a one-man organization (the etherpad, talking via MSN, getting people involved and on the same page and just downright excited) while still allowing you to see everything we did and have final say.

3.  Had the random idea for Pilot patrols of the lower city.  This idea has no effect on any 'plot,' but does give Pilot players a good excuse to make some posts about actual work, rather than their Pilots lounging around doing nothing in the repressive military dictatorship HQ.  It doesn't, again, compel anyone to do anything, but I thought it made sense for the board to have some actual Pilot business sometimes.

4.  Had the idea to actually PM the Gospels OOC (and IC), which I have done sparingly.

5.  Started a blog, which seems not to be a problem for anyone.  I hope people want to get involved there.  If not, I'll keep going anyway.  XD

One big plot event was not even with my Seeker character, just Neel, and I just threw it out with no idea where it was going!  So it's gone somewhere interesting--I have no idea where--so what?  

Seriously, guys, I think this discussion was long overdue, and I do not feel I deserve censure for starting it.  So maybe I didn't get things quite right.  It's still not a hard fix--we're posting the etherpad convos and people have the code links.  I agree with everything Sylph said, and I'm glad it was said, because it was not clear to me when I began this stuff.

If anyone thinks otherwise, let me know and I will discuss it rationally.  I have no real problems with anyone here, not even you, Choco, other than what I have stated here.  I just want to have fun.

[Rhi-Rhi]

>> metaing...

Ignoring the rest of the thread, yea sorry guys I got carried away with the code thing too. wont happen again, we don't have to use it. (:

- Indigo

[Anonymous]

My take on the Seekers/Etherpad:

Personally, I rather like the Etherpad. When we have more than one Seeker online, it's faster, more streamlined, and allows us to talk Ooc while discussing things IC. The Ooc has let Sam slap me on the wrist when I (once) accidentally overstepped the Ooc/IC line- it was unintentional, and I wouldn't have even seen it if not for her. I'm grateful for the quick reply, which let me quickly erase what Darsche shouldn't have known before it became problematic.

While I would have preferred that all the Seekers be required to have a link to said Etherpad in their signature (so that others could read it), this Channel idea is good, too. :3 A bit slower, but good nonetheless.

I don't believe it was a bad idea in the least- and Sam deserved none of the criticism. D: Geez, guys, calm down a bit- she had an idea. A damn good one that let us start a few twists, at that. So it might not have been the best for secrecy; that could have been solved with a nice, civil, "So... could you link it to us so we can see?", rather than a flame fest. Like Rhi said (and several others, as well!), it's a game. It's pretend. We do this for fun. Why ruin it with senseless wank?

Let's take a look at this from a new member's perspective.

1. Sam brings up an idea.
2. Seekers like it.
3. Said creator gets flamed for ingenuity.

That's not a good way to encourage input, methinks. All that shows the new member (that just showed up and hasn't seen other ideas implemented over the past year or so) is that we criticize new ideas and actively fight change. Anyone who's been here for a while knows that's not the case, but for Mr(s). New Guy? The position we've all been in on this site? This thread would be mind-boggling 'proof' of such hostility and would promptly chase them away.

While blanket statements aren't exactly encouraged, a bonfire like this thread was at one point might be enough to scare away a newbie.

---

Back on topic, I don't mind making our Seeker blog public (goodness, it would add intrigue, wouldn't it? ), and quite frankly don't care whether the Gospel threads are visible or not. It's interesting to read 'em, sure, but if it really requires secrecy and code... then let it be.

I just request that the less urgent messages not be coded. I understand missions and prerogatives and such, but messages like, "Hi Larry!" don't exactly need it, eh?

Edit: Oh. Right. I was also contacted when the Gospels were planning to hack a Fala post. :p

[Anonymous]

Is it okay if we still use the etherpad if we post up our messages right after each session?  Maybe Rhi could make all the Seekers mods of the Seeker area, so we can edit info into the messages already there (like the lists of reasons to suspect Gospels), too, so we don't keep having to make new posts.  Just a thought on the practical front.  Over and out.

[Rhi-Rhi]

Definitely! Either way can work--I can mod you Seeker players for the Seekernet, or you can just do stuff on the etherpad and then transfer it over. Whichever works. :3

[Anonymous]

Oh, I figured both--like, we could edit in stuff /from/ the etherpad, not edit out anything existing.

[Anonymous]

Having /all/ of us mod the Seekernet I think would get intensely confusing.

I made the posts, if there's something you want to add to them just let me know and I'll do so, I see no problem with tacking things on to each file though, that's why I separated them out when I moved them so that way we could reply easily and see what we were talking about. I'd also rather just do things on the board because transferring things it would seem kind of pointless to put it on the ethernet in the first place.

If it's conversation things we could just do it in MSN yeah?

[Anonymous]

I don't know, I think Kurai and I both like the etherpad.  It's useful because it has both a chatbox and a place to write things together, and we can also simultaneously talk over MSN... I guess it's just convenient?  Obviously we'd post whatever we wrote on it right after, so *shrugs* I guess I don't see the big deal.  As for editing, I suppose we don't have to do that.

[Anonymous]

Whatever works I spose. The ethernet is cool as well. Whatever people wanna do with it.